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[MEGA THREAD] Player Mechanics - Climbing, Movement, Combat

Num47

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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
As the title suggests, it's the idea of being able to hold/push against a door keeping it shut and threats out... but only for a limited time... which is how long your stamina can last while the door is taking a beating or when holding you give the door "a little extra health" and when it lowers past this "bonus" you gotta let go.

Example. You have full stamina so you are able to hold the door for 20-30 seconds until you let go/lean back... or each push/hit against the door from the would-be intruder lowers your stamina until you can't hold it anymore.

Example 2. Because you are holding the door shut (pushing or leaning against) you give it a little extra strength to withstand some damage, when it takes the damage you can no longer hold the door.
 

spaceman

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As the title suggests, it's the idea of being able to hold/push against a door keeping it shut and threats out... but only for a limited time... which is how long your stamina can last while the door is taking a beating or when holding you give the door "a little extra health" and when it lowers past this "bonus" you gotta let go.

Example. You have full stamina so you are able to hold the door for 20-30 seconds until you let go/lean back... or each push/hit against the door from the would-be intruder lowers your stamina until you can't hold it anymore.

Example 2. Because you are holding the door shut (pushing or leaning against) you give it a little extra strength to withstand some damage, when it takes the damage you can no longer hold the door.
like the idea, but you can only lose up to half your total stamina as you will need some to fight off whoever or whatever comes through the door.
 

Num47

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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
like the idea, but you can only lose up to half your total stamina as you will need some to fight off whoever or whatever comes through the door.
like the thought of that... gives you the choice of keeping hold of the door, to fight or retreat.
 

Num47

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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
nice but this could wind up getting kinda trollish early to mid game once people figure out that they can screw with you
I agree with you on that... it's hard when thinking of ideas because you've always got to think of how it will be abused for griefing/trolling because people will always try to exploit stuff.

My only idea to counter it is... a human does have more strength and intelligence than a zed (well, some of us do :p), so giving players the ability to kick/shoulder barge as-well as naturally using melee weapon/firearms to break through would probably be enough... and also that the person holding the door is going to loose stamina, and probably the fight after the person breaks through. This should make people think twice about using it just to be an ass.

But I dunno, I'm just brainstorming it...
 

NothingsTRUE

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I like this idea! I would like to choose weather to use all of my stamina or 50% though. This will allow for another team building exercise. If you and your partner get into a fire fight and/or being chased by zeds one can hold the door open while the other nails the door shut to allow you guys to figure out a next step. Thus the "extra" damage bar added by the action of holding the door can make it acts like no one ever hit the door and than after the door is nailed it gets a perma boost of damage resistance due to it taking more effort to kick/break down. Any thoughts?
 

Montauk

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I like the idea, but really I think you should have the choice of holding the door closed or not regardless of your stamina level, other than zero of course at which point you get shoved aside.

@NothingsTRUE just sparked an idea, what if there wasn't a second person present to nail the door shut while you held it? My idea is you could perform certain actions while holding the door closed, however it would make you less effective at keeping it closed. Basically the door would slowly creep open, while draining your stamina at the same rate as if you were only holding it shut. You would then need to "shove" the door closed again which would consume a given amount of stamina, perhaps based on how much the door is opened, to fully shut it again. Or, each shove can consume a fixed amount of stamina and close the door a fixed amount, so multiple shoves may be required to fully shut it again.

If you don't have enough stamina available to fully shove it shut then one of two things could happen.
A) You simply can't perform the "shove" action.
B) You can perform the shove action, and the door closes by however much your current level of stamina allows, essentially partially shoving it closed again. Note: If shoves are a fixed amount and closes the door by a fixed amount, then I say nothing happens and you simply have a choice to make, continue trying to hold the door shut and hope they run out before you do, or GTFO.

Lots of good ideas rolling around in here, keep it up!
 

NothingsTRUE

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@Montauk This is a good idea for the solo survivor. In the event you don't close the door due to someone or some zed pushing on it you can shove the door closed and can guarantee a small amount of time to either run out the back or figure out another plan.
 

Montauk

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@Montauk This is a good idea for the solo survivor. In the event you don't close the door due to someone or some zed pushing on it you can shove the door closed and can guarantee a small amount of time to either run out the back or figure out another plan.
Exactly, or even for the coop survivor where their partner isn't readily available to assist for whatever reason.
 

Num47

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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
Love the idea of choosing to use some stamina to shove back, what about using a melee weapon (maybe an object close at hand like a chair only rule would be it needs to be within arms reach) to jam under the handle or like you mentioned the fork lock to jam the door shut?

But this action could only be done during this "sequence"...
 
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Montauk

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Another thought I had regarding a sort of shove mechanic with the door, aside from the above scenario where you're holding the door shut and trying to perform some kind of secondary action. It's known that we'll be able to increase our stats in some way, so there's a good chance you may encounter someone with a higher strength value than your own. If you're pushing against the door to keep it shut while the stronger person is pushing back trying to open it, the stronger person will be able to slowly open the door. You'll have to perform a shove to keep the door from closing. Of course the other person could also perform a shove to open the door faster, and it will just boil down to who has more stamina or who is forced to give up first because another player or zombie(s) are moving in.

This could work with zombies too. I think it would be great if zombies had varying stats, like strength and stamina (among others). Some may be very weak while others could be relatively strong, making it easier to hold doors against some but difficult against others. Also, there's the likelihood of forcing the door shut on multiple zombies, which would of course make it that much more difficult to keep the door shut depending on your stats. Of course with enough zombies trying to pour through the door it won't matter.
 

Davz Not Here

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+1
i like this

a player can hold the door ..... maybe it's a separate action (and hot key) than shove

- how many zombies, piling up against a door can the player hold back before the player loses and the (apparently unlocked) door opens?
- how does a lock affect this scenario
- how many zombies, piling up against a door, before the door is just ripped from the hinges and door jam regardless of the player stamina and strength?
- literally, how many zombies can one player hold behind a door?
- is the player alone?
- if not, how many other players are with the player?
- see question 4, and ask, "how many zombies can 2 players hold back? Three players? Four?"
- will doors be something we can barricade?
- if so see questions 4 and 6, then determine the mechs for holding a door AND barricading it at the same time
 

RodeDog

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I don't know how many throw-able items are in the game but being able to choose your throwing style, such as over/under hand, could come in handy, and is more realistic.

Examples: If you are indoors and are lighting up rooms with a chem-light (just as an example) you wouldn't want to over hand throw it into the room, you would want to under hand toss it. If you are against a wall if zombies on the other side you could toss a chunk of meat (just as an example) just over the wall to keep the zombies occupied wile you slip past them.

Maybe you could have two different settings for this option. First; Automatic, if you are pointing 10 feet or closer you would automatically underhand toss it, and if you are pointing 10 feet or more you would overhand toss it. Second; Manual, you would have to bind one or two keys that would change your throwing style, such as "-" and "=".
 

Num47

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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
Just had the thought of a "lock-on" kinda thing for fighting with players... it seems like a good idea in my head as it could have a more cinematic/immersive feel and could open up options for "moves" like grappling etc

Just a thought to discuss, it may be a terrible idea :D
 

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I figured a thread discussing this topic at length was already archived, but considering it's not I'm more than happy to approach it. Hopefully the thread is still here by the time I get finished haha.

To start off, we need to identify the major faults in other survival game melee mechanics and try our best to avoid them. Starting with Specimen #1 H1Z1, let's see how the combat plays out from a series of videos.


In these two clips, a number of things are painfully apparent.

The first is that the hit box on the melee weapons seems to lock onto the nearest person. This may be a technical issue that has yet to be solved and in which case is understandable, but if you're swinging wildly you'd expect anything in front of you to show damage.

That is the second fault to this games design. While the players on the receiving end may have very well been inflicted with cuts and blood loss there's hardly any physical confirmation of a successful attack.

Thirdly, just look at how the characters move, no human can run around infinitely and have their legs spin with their torso. It works the other way around, your top half usually follows the route of the bottom half. This is probably one of the most glaring issues that results in what I call, the Dance of Death (DoD). The players whip around like a certain hedgehog flailing about like children.

That brings me to the fourth issue, that I could see, and that is the attack animation. Limited to a sole repeat action it's not a surprise that players take to dances of death in order to win a melee fight.


This clip largely brings attention to the issue of Melee vs Firearms. In H1Z1 it seems firearms are the go to weapon for superiority and for good reason. But as we saw from the clip a player can take three chops to the back from a machete and simply turn around and end their attacker in seconds. This takes away any faith let alone interest in using melee weapons to defeat or survive an attack, up close, with someone wielding a firearm.


This clip compounds the lessons learned above and displays them in a spontaneous fashion.

0:34-0:35 can you do that?
0:42 You could easily slash at him over the guard rail.
0:52 Look at the acrobatics this guy has to go through to avoid being shot at.

1:23 Sets up to be a CQC square off of biblical proportion. Look at how their weapons slice right through the concrete and metal around them with ease! Who ever said cramped spaces were a bad place to use lengthy weapons?
1:34 Look at that finesse! Healing in the midst of combat without dropping his weapon.

2:38 WHAT AN ABSOLUTE MONSTER! Killing him with the force of his swing when earlier he couldn't even catch up to those guys. Truly he was playing with his prey.

Apologies if the banter offends any, but it's to get a point across.

A lot of what has to do with horrible melee combat, at least in H1Z1, stems from character mechanics as well as weapons.

Character:
  • Infinite Stamina - It and the dynamic of characters contributes the largest to the DoD. With no limitations on the speed, direction, and duration of travel then you'll have players running in circles looking for clip spots or readily make blinds spots to attack from. Actual combat doesn't work this way. The ebb and flow of slow, arduous combat is impossible to encounter as you'd be met with superior speed and maneuvering and be outclasses.

  • Character Dynamics - The thing that bounds and shapes player vs player interaction and simply action as a whole. Without a semblance of realistic dynamics there should be no expectations of realistic or complex combat. If it's limited to solely Speed & Direction vs Speed & Direction you get what we have up above. If I cannot recover quickly from being struck from behind then my character shouldn't be allowed to break his nonexistent spine in order to retaliate.

  • Attack/Wound Animation - These are important in creating atmosphere and having melee combat, or any combat, be a more structured and thought out event instead of a DoD. While I can understand flailing attacks would be common without training and the issue of no blood could be due to EA, the point still remains that knowing your attack connected is essential. If you have no idea then you're more apt to panic as you fight to discern your fight or flight response.

    Though, if you have an indicator such as grunts of pain, blood, or staggering/flinching then you're more aware of the situation and the situation itself is more interactive. If I hack at a tree for a minute then I get wood in my inventory, that's not very interactive. Seeing the tree start to tilt, hearing the crack and snap of limbs, and the resounding thud of the several hundred pound hunk of wood I just cut down. Now that's engaging and makes you feel as if you did something to the digital world before your eyes.

Weapon:
  • Weapon Hitbox/Reach - This is a tricky thing to tackle and will most likely always have issues of some sort or another. Personally, I don't understand a lick of the coding that goes into developing these things. I can only go off what I've seen via playing and give conjecture from there.(I'd appreciate an explanation though) If all weapons have the same reach then their tactical advantages and disadvantages are obsolete. I could kill you with a rubber duck as you poke at me with a ten foot spear and it wouldn't matter. Without Infinite Stamina and wonky Character Dynamics this would cease to be a issue. There would also be less encounters with friendly fire too.

    What's more difficult to approach and handle is weapons interacting with their environment. Now this may be beyond the Devs capability and less of a concern than the problems given, but it does make for an interesting mechanic. You wouldn't try to swing a bat in a corridor only big enough to allow you passage. If the ceiling was too small an overhead swing would be out of question, the same for if you couldn't wind up. A better option would be a knife or thrusting weapon that would be unaffected by width and height limitations.

With an established basis of melee faults let's continue and look at Specimen #2 Dayz.



0:10 This man choose the wrong day to cross paths with Iron Mike.
0:25 Mike didn't rape that woman, but he sure stripped this poor sucker half naked in a matter of seconds. (I know it's sped up, but still.)
0:39 Nothing can protect you from Iron Mike, not even a biker helmet!
0:45 Mike does it again! Putting on a vest while his attacker is in mid swing! No wonder his opponents could never see his fists coming.
1:45 Look at Mike charge head first into these armed men. The man truly knows no fear.
1:49-1:52 That'll teach him to look at Mike with those squared-eyes and that slack jaw.
1:55 That must be a new record.
2:41 Mike did nothing here but I found it amusing how the player died from seemingly nothing. Either a lag from the shot fired to his right or some other unforeseen ailment, maybe Spontaneous Combustion.
Some more banter for you all.

A lot of the same problems that stem from H1Z1 can be found in Dayz melee combat. Wonky Character Dynamic, seemingly Infinite Sprint, and weapon Hitbox/Reach. Now, what's a new and old is the quick knock-outs and the unrealistic looting.

  • Knock-Outs - A reasonable feature, but one that can result in a relatively unbalanced position for those who inflict it on others. The key to this feature is what exactly it takes to knock-out your opponent and what state they're in during and after. If you make it easy then you'll have what we have above where everyone, including grandma, is Iron Mike and can charge you and have you out cold in a matter of seconds.

  • Unrealistic Looting - Now I know I'll get debate over this, but there's no denying it factors into combat. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone win a 1v1 in games with similar combat systems because they were quick to go from helpless to bolstering a M249 and mowed down their opponent. A person is heavy, and getting their clothes off dead or alive is not simply becoming a reverse hulk and tearing it from their bodies.

Since we're seeing a common theme already I think it's safe to say we've pinpointed the core of the problem. If you have other games feel free to include them, but I'm going to move on from here.

Before I get to your suggestions @Num47 I want to highlight ways to remedy the above problems.

Infinite Stamina - No. While I know STN won't go this route it needs to be said more than once. No. People get tired, both inside combat and out, and instead of being a problem it needs to be considered when deciding upon an action. This is Apocalyptic Horror SURVIVAL. Survival situations are a constant war waged between man and his environment. There should be reason it's stressful and difficult and people want to return to the way things were.

Now as far as mechanics go, it should be based on a person's health and physical fitness. Someone who takes care of their character and isn't suffering from wounds or ailments will be more apt for physical fitness. The reverse should not allow a player to circumvent the passive advantage of those who do. To make a comparison, I'd like to see it be a bit like Dark Souls with the roll mechanic and Endurance + Weight.

Endurance


Character Dynamics - This will likely be the most difficult, debated, and time consuming to get right. Personally, I think character should be a bit sluggish in their movements to match their undead counterpart. I'm not saying we should run like we're cripple, but changing directions should be an action of the entire body and take 2-3 animations. First one has to step in the direction they want to pivot. Then they shift their weight and body to follow that step. There's likely a small delay in this and the point where they finish the turn and bring their other foot forward.

Yes, it's complicated and I described it horribly, but now you see what I mean earlier by difficult. This along with its influence on combat will play a big part. If someone attacks you from behind you WILL suffer for it. The extent will have to be hashed out, but the only consolation is if you're both on equal footing and not zooming around like a certain hedgehog then you'll be able to face your opponent before the next strike, depending on their weapon of choice. This rewards the stealthy opportunists and punishes the obtuse gambler.

Really, if we're to have any complex animations for attacks, parry, or blocking then this needs to be absolutely down pat.


Attack/Wound Animation - Wild swings are fine, but they can't be the end all be all. Depending on weapon I think we should have the ability to two hand larger weapons for additional damage, but slower swing. Weapons that can be thrust with should have the option. Maybe bind it to different weapon stances and grips. This should also apply to barehanded attacks. Simply having it where you can walk with open palms or closed fists would be enough to warn of an incoming attack. Though without Iron Mike on the loose that may not be necessary.

Wound animations can be more than blood and cries of agony. I would like to see a stagger mechanic, managed well of course, that allows one to gain an upper hand during combat. Again I will make a comparison with Dark Souls, but something similar to the Poise system I believe would be appropriate.

Poise

Depending on your stock character traits and clothing you could take two to three hit before having to worry about your opponent getting the upper hand. A player would need to decide carefully on their method of initial attack and try to read their opponent in order to win the duel. Which, since I already made an acronym for Dance of Death I'll make one for what we're after. We'll call it a Duel to Death.(DTD)

With various weapons eating difference amounts of poise each fight will be a unique one between combatants.


Weapon Hitbox/Reach - I really can't offer much advice without knowing the technical acrobatics tied with this mechanic. It seems simple enough to make an items interact with objects within a specific range and area of motion, but in code it's likely a mountain of numbers and ; semicolons. Different weapons should namely offer different range and thus advantages/disadvantages. A bit like how Project Zomboid has the spade reach farther than the baseball bat, but inflict less damage and have less durability.

Prioritizing objects within its range of influence is another thing I cannot speak for, but view as a problem to DTD.


Knock-Outs - I'm not a fan of completely incapacitating your enemy, but I can understand the appeal. Barring research into the physical causes of most loss of consciousness, a fair strike to the head with a blunt object should increase a risk of it than simply punching someone. Being able to select the head for a swing? That's a whole other matter tied with coding just like Weapon Hitbox/Reach.

Considering they'll likely result in death afterward it seems more like a problem to me than a enjoyable feature. Now, if someone were dazed and suffered from inaccurate/coordinated attacks instead I could see that being more viable. Since I hope most PvP encounters will end in one party retreating, this would give incentive to said party that they are losing the duel.


Unrealistic Looting - Animations & Timers. Either Animations or both would be ideal. While H1Z1 features timers as does Battleground when healing, they simply aren't long enough. I could see someone wrestling a weapon from someone's hands in a few seconds, but checking that it's loaded and being able to aim straight afterward are a bit much. Worn equipment I feel should take considerably longer to remove and put on than weapons. There should be a divided timer for both to show the progress as well.

Scavenging on the other hand should be a bit quicker. Largely to promote players from gaining equipment and weapons via that route instead of PvP.


It would seem I've spent too much time on the above and won't be able to make an appropriate response to the OP. I'll write what I can quickly and get back to it at a later time.

Block/Parry:
Being able to block/parry attacks where you have an equal weapon to the attacker/hand-to-hand and if successful would leave the attacker open to attack/grapple for a brief moment.
The issue with this aside from the animation is the window to allow for parrying. How could we determine between what is too short and too long? How long would someone be open to a grapple?Would it be a skill one could train in or would everyone know how to parry?

Grapple:
Now I am not thinking WWE when I say grapple... no supplex or DDT shit but something more like a shove/throw (depending on your physical condition and stamina) in a direction (maybe toward an object or zombies) as to escape or get the upper hand in the fight.

A grapple would only be performed after a successful block/parry (and from behind?), but it should also take into factor the state of both players physical condition and level of stamina...
so you would stand more chance of pulling this off if the other person is wounded and low or extremely low on stamina.
Should we allow those being grappled a chance to break out of it at a cost of greater stamina? How exactly would directing someone work? Would a directional ASDW or arrow key prompt pop up? How far would we reasonably be able to toss someone? Could we charge the throw so they topple to the ground?

Finisher:
Now by this I don't mean a fatality rather more a possible knockout if successful, so as to keep you from suffering a mentality... It would only be successful when the opponent is extremely low on stamina and during a grapple move (instead of throwing/shoving) and would give you the option to either leave the fight as the winner or kill the person.
What would these Finisher's consist of? A strike upon the head with a blunt object? A choke hold to cause the other person to go unconscious? Would players get to select their Finisher and would different ones hold unique adv/dis? How much stamina should it require compared to grappling and regular attacks?
 

Num47

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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
The issue with this aside from the animation is the window to allow for parrying. How could we determine between what is too short and too long? How long would someone be open to a grapple?Would it be a skill one could train in or would everyone know how to parry?

Should we allow those being grappled a chance to break out of it at a cost of greater stamina? How exactly would directing someone work? Would a directional ASDW or arrow key prompt pop up? How far would we reasonably be able to toss someone? Could we charge the throw so they topple to the ground?

What would these Finisher's consist of? A strike upon the head with a blunt object? A choke hold to cause the other person to go unconscious? Would players get to select their Finisher and would different ones hold unique adv/dis? How much stamina should it require compared to grappling and regular attacks?
Only thing I could add to what you initialy said is, maybe trying something like inertia/kinematics with the character movements and maybe even with the melee swings, stabs etc to see the effects of the environment during fighting.

To what you aked...
Parrying I imagine would be a universal thing we all know... the effect of your parry could depend on your current state of health, I'd say you would be open for grapple the duration of a "knock-back" animation from a "failed" attack maybe and only if your stamina is low enough to-be grappled, otherwise it could be an automatic fail?.

By grapple I probably just mean throwing someone to one side or to the ground, to make them loose footing... a fighting/grapple combo probably would not work... I dunno... as for cost of stamina... could be you couldn't if you don't have "x" miminum amount... like a short burst... imagine an invisible bar I guess and if your less than half you don't have the energy to toss someone around (giggity) becuause you most likely be using it fighting.

The finisher would be something like what you described, maybe with what you said about showing signs of injury that when you're exhausted from fighting that is when either a "passive" i.e choke hold and "aggressive" i.e club to the head finisher could be executed and "style" could be determined by your mental state.

Edit: Shit grammar
 
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Bchhog

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Only thing I could add to what you initialy said is, maybe trying something like inertia/kinematics with the character movements and maybe even with the melee swings, stabs etc to see the effects of the environment during fighting.
Could you elaborate a bit more? I assume you largely mean something akin to momentum. Mass, Velocity, and Direction resulting in specific animations depending on environment and weapon.

To what you aked...
Parrying I imagine would be a universal thing we all know... the effect of your parry could depend on your current state of health, I'd say you would be open for grapple the duration of a "knock-back" animation from a "failed" attack maybe and only if your stamina is low enough to-be grappled, otherwise it could be an automatic fail?.
I'd be fine with health being connected to combat efficiency. While I rather separate playstyles to character presets, this allows for decisions within playstyle to affect available actions later on. That sounds reasonable, depending on how long the knock-back animation is. Though I think there should be a button prompt regardless to signal you want to break loose. Should a failed grapple offer a similar knock-back window, but smaller?

By grapple I probably just mean throwing someone to one side or to the ground, to make them loose footing... a fighting/grapple combo probably would not work... I dunno... as for cost of stamina... could be you couldn't if you don't have "x" miminum amount... like a short burst... imagine an invisible bar I guess and if your less than half you don't have the energy to toss someone around (giggity) becuause you most likely be using it fighting.
I like that better than an orthodox grapple. Along with wild swings, pushing and shoving seem to be hallmarks of amateur fights alongside a few punches here or there.

I would rather see it that if you do have under half you become exhausted and vulnerable for a short time. There could be animation and audio signs to let you know your stamina without the need of a bar. Though depending on the technical sides of things a bar may be simply the quickest and easiest approach. I do agree a good portion would be needed to grab hold of a person and push them, but with them being off balance from the parry perhaps it can be less than if you were to try for a parry-less grapple.

The finisher would be something like what you described, maybe with what you said about showing signs of injury that when you're exhausted from fighting that is when either a "passive" i.e choke hold and "aggressive" i.e club to the head finisher could be executed and "style" could be determined by your mental state.

Edit: Shit grammar
I like the last bit. That would truly be something you would likely see in a zombie survival situation. Those more innocent and clinging to the old world ideals would try to go out of their way, if possible, to insure their opponent was not possibly killed. On the other hand those who are exposed to the harshness of the world or are cynical would go for the quick and easy method of a club to the head. One thing to note I believe is that blunt objects would likely be the go to knock-out weapon. Blades do not offer much in that department due to their nature.

Are there any other Finisher suggestions you might have? For that matter anything of note in what I discussed above that you think needs further discussion? I know the site is prone to sleeping haha, but this is a big subject that I think needs multiple sources of input.
 

Num47

Sexual Tyrannosaurus
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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
Could you elaborate a bit more? I assume you largely mean something akin to momentum. Mass, Velocity, and Direction resulting in specific animations depending on environment and weapon.
Basically yea, could/would determine the physics/animations. I was just wondering about how something like inverse kinematics and inertia would/could effect the the players during combat and maybe the weapons also... I guess it's seen in games nowadays anyway like GTA for example but I don't think I have seen such things used in a FPS title with a possibly more robust fighting system.

I may be wrong, I have not seen everything :(


Should a failed grapple offer a similar knock-back window, but smaller?
I'd guess the best thing would be a failed grapple would result in both parties almost stepping back to continue the fight... so we don't get in a limbo of parrying and grapples, just that the person who attempted would naturally have less stamina for trying, making the fight tougher for them... something like that.


I would rather see it that if you do have under half you become exhausted and vulnerable for a short time. There could be animation and audio signs to let you know your stamina without the need of a bar. Though depending on the technical sides of things a bar may be simply the quickest and easiest approach. I do agree a good portion would be needed to grab hold of a person and push them, but with them being off balance from the parry perhaps it can be less than if you were to try for a parry-less grapple.
To begin with a bar would probably be fine and then hopefully animations like, leaning forward trying to catch your breath back for in the future. And I agree with it needing less stamina if they are off balance... makes sense.

I like the last bit. That would truly be something you would likely see in a zombie survival situation. Those more innocent and clinging to the old world ideals would try to go out of their way, if possible, to insure their opponent was not possibly killed. On the other hand those who are exposed to the harshness of the world or are cynical would go for the quick and easy method of a club to the head. One thing to note I believe is that blunt objects would likely be the go to knock-out weapon. Blades do not offer much in that department due to their nature.

Are there any other Finisher suggestions you might have? For that matter anything of note in what I discussed above that you think needs further discussion? I know the site is prone to sleeping haha, but this is a big subject that I think needs multiple sources of input.
Their could be a few, guess it could depend firstly on the state of mind and then the weapon you are holding (or not).

Passive could be to choke them out with bare hands or with a weapon and maybe a knock to the back of the head with something blunt/butt of a gun after a succesful throw-down (granted the combatant is low on stamina/health).

The agressive blackout could result in a number of types, any would be fine I guess... and I'm sure there could be some good suggestions.

More heads on this topic would bring up some interesting stuff... I'm sure there are things I am not even thinking about or taking into account.
 

Bchhog

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I'd guess the best thing would be a failed grapple would result in both parties almost stepping back to continue the fight... so we don't get in a limbo of parrying and grapples, just that the person who attempted would naturally have less stamina for trying, making the fight tougher for them... something like that.
It would also make sense for both parties to try and regain their composure after an initial scuffle.

More heads on this topic would bring up some interesting stuff... I'm sure there are things I am not even thinking about or taking into account.
I'd wager there is a lot not being taken into account.

@JB_ Since you're the most active Dev on the forums what are your thoughts? Also what can you share with us that might further our discussion? Feel free to ignore this until you manage some time in your busy schedule.

@strategos2411 @Montauk @DemoCar82 @Survivor @Strider If you guys could take a minute from your modding duties input would be greatly appreciated.

@NothingsTRUE @Davz Not Here @SpaceBaldy Mind coming back in here to voice approval or new ideas?

@We gotz purple stuff :T @BlackWater and anyone else active. Your input however small is welcome. Simple support for or against ideas is better than none.
 

Num47

Sexual Tyrannosaurus
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What? No. We can't stop here. This is bat country.
Might aswell put the thought in here... @Bchhog how about the chance of disarming an opponent if/when you are hitting hands/arms?
 
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